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 Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 12:12 am
Lilith, where the heck did she come from? I've heard stories and myths about her, being the first wife of Adam, and what not, I do not believe that I have seen her mentioned anywhere in the Bible, save for a breif appearance in Isiah, but then again this was the a christian Bible; that supposedly contains the contents of the Torah(Jewish Bible). I have other questions regarding Lilith, but the main one is at what point did she appear in Jewish myth? I mean she doesn't appear to be recorded in the Bible, or at least not very well mind you.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:22 am
Hm...I can't seem to find an origin really, although this is a good time to point out the inaccuracy of the KJV.
All I can seem to find is that it originated in the Alphabet of Ben-Sira, which dates to 700-1000 CE.
And the way I know the story, after she left Adam, she went to mate with Asmodaeus and begat the Lilim.
LCL what?
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:30 am
Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:04 pm
kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:01 pm
RoseRose kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this. In the Book of Isaiah, Lilith night-demon or animal, translated as onokentauros in the Septuagint, as lamia "witch" by Hieronymus of Cardia, and as screech owl in the King James Version of the Bible. Citations of Lilith in the Talmud: Niddah 24b Erubin 100b Shabbath 151b and A Few others I think? The Only Reference to Lilith as the Wife of Adam though comes from The Alphabet of Ben-Sira . Which is a medieval text.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:35 pm
Rookherst[KOS] RoseRose kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this. In the Book of Isaiah, Lilith night-demon or animal, translated as onokentauros in the Septuagint, as lamia "witch" by Hieronymus of Cardia, and as screech owl in the King James Version of the Bible. Citations of Lilith in the Talmud: Niddah 24b Erubin 100b Shabbath 151b and A Few others I think? The Only Reference to Lilith as the Wife of Adam though comes from The Alphabet of Ben-Sira . Which is a medieval text. Can you give me the chapter and verse, or the Hebrew? (I know SOME Biblical Hebrew, so when discussing with me, if you're going to use ancient languages, at least for the Old Testament, the Hebrew would be the best... I don't know Greek or Latin.)
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:44 pm
RoseRose Rookherst[KOS] RoseRose kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this. In the Book of Isaiah, Lilith night-demon or animal, translated as onokentauros in the Septuagint, as lamia "witch" by Hieronymus of Cardia, and as screech owl in the King James Version of the Bible. Citations of Lilith in the Talmud: Niddah 24b Erubin 100b Shabbath 151b and A Few others I think? The Only Reference to Lilith as the Wife of Adam though comes from The Alphabet of Ben-Sira . Which is a medieval text. Can you give me the chapter and verse, or the Hebrew? (I know SOME Biblical Hebrew, so when discussing with me, if you're going to use ancient languages, at least for the Old Testament, the Hebrew would be the best... I don't know Greek or Latin.) I did give the Citations..... question
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:23 pm
I call shenanigans on Lilith being in the book of Isaiah until I see proof otherwise.
The Talmudic passages in questions reference Lilith, they do not cite her. A reference does not denote canonical existance or authority, as they are likely simply cultural references (much like we'd reference Lilith in the magazine that bears her name today).
The Alphabet of Ben-Sira is a satire, and the date on it is highly arguable. It likely originates in the late first Millenia AD, based on cultural references.
And Lilith's main appearence comes from a parable (not literal canon, I remind you) in the Midrash.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:27 pm
Rookherst[KOS] RoseRose Rookherst[KOS] RoseRose kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this. In the Book of Isaiah, Lilith night-demon or animal, translated as onokentauros in the Septuagint, as lamia "witch" by Hieronymus of Cardia, and as screech owl in the King James Version of the Bible. Citations of Lilith in the Talmud: Niddah 24b Erubin 100b Shabbath 151b and A Few others I think? The Only Reference to Lilith as the Wife of Adam though comes from The Alphabet of Ben-Sira . Which is a medieval text. Can you give me the chapter and verse, or the Hebrew? (I know SOME Biblical Hebrew, so when discussing with me, if you're going to use ancient languages, at least for the Old Testament, the Hebrew would be the best... I don't know Greek or Latin.) I did give the Citations..... question Not for Isaiah. That's a BIG book. Where does Isaiah talk about Lilith? You only say the word, not chapter and verse.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:48 pm
RoseRose Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this.
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Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 11:53 pm
Rookherst[KOS] RoseRose kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this. In the Book of Isaiah, Lilith night-demon or animal, translated as onokentauros in the Septuagint, as lamia "witch" by Hieronymus of Cardia, and as screech owl in the King James Version of the Bible. Citations of Lilith in the Talmud: Niddah 24b Erubin 100b Shabbath 151b and A Few others I think? The Only Reference to Lilith as the Wife of Adam though comes from The Alphabet of Ben-Sira . Which is a medieval text. Talmud, isn't that the teachings of the rabbi's or whatever?
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:36 am
Stxitxchxes I call shenanigans on Lilith being in the book of Isaiah until I see proof otherwise. The Talmudic passages in questions reference Lilith, they do not cite her. A reference does not denote canonical existance or authority, as they are likely simply cultural references (much like we'd reference Lilith in the magazine that bears her name today). The Alphabet of Ben-Sira is a satire, and the date on it is highly arguable. It likely originates in the late first Millenia AD, based on cultural references. And Lilith's main appearence comes from a parable (not literal canon, I remind you) in the Midrash. Isaiah 34:11. Translated as "screech owl" in NIV and KJV, generally "owl" in most of the others. My favorite is The Message, only because damn, it's long, for one verse. And it clearly mentions Lilith.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:36 am
Cougar Draven Stxitxchxes I call shenanigans on Lilith being in the book of Isaiah until I see proof otherwise. The Talmudic passages in questions reference Lilith, they do not cite her. A reference does not denote canonical existance or authority, as they are likely simply cultural references (much like we'd reference Lilith in the magazine that bears her name today). The Alphabet of Ben-Sira is a satire, and the date on it is highly arguable. It likely originates in the late first Millenia AD, based on cultural references. And Lilith's main appearence comes from a parable (not literal canon, I remind you) in the Midrash. Isaiah 34:11. Translated as "screech owl" in NIV and KJV, generally "owl" in most of the others. My favorite is The Message, only because damn, it's long, for one verse. And it clearly mentions Lilith. After reading the passage in question and the commentaries associated with it, I'm leaning towards a cultural reference. Rashi's commentary leads me heavily to believe that it's being used as a literary device to drive home how bad Hashem means for the retribution to be. As for what the Talmud is, NFL, the Talmud is a large book of Jewish Law and commentary. Some of it is literally canonical, but not all of it. Really it's jsut a big book of rabbis talking and arguing amongst themselves about specific points of halachah and canon.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 10:41 am
Stxitxchxes Cougar Draven Stxitxchxes I call shenanigans on Lilith being in the book of Isaiah until I see proof otherwise. The Talmudic passages in questions reference Lilith, they do not cite her. A reference does not denote canonical existance or authority, as they are likely simply cultural references (much like we'd reference Lilith in the magazine that bears her name today). The Alphabet of Ben-Sira is a satire, and the date on it is highly arguable. It likely originates in the late first Millenia AD, based on cultural references. And Lilith's main appearence comes from a parable (not literal canon, I remind you) in the Midrash. Isaiah 34:11. Translated as "screech owl" in NIV and KJV, generally "owl" in most of the others. My favorite is The Message, only because damn, it's long, for one verse. And it clearly mentions Lilith. After reading the passage in question and the commentaries associated with it, I'm leaning towards a cultural reference. Rashi's commentary leads me heavily to believe that it's being used as a literary device to drive home how bad Hashem means for the retribution to be. As for what the Talmud is, NFL, the Talmud is a large book of Jewish Law and commentary. Some of it is literally canonical, but not all of it. Really it's jsut a big book of rabbis talking and arguing amongst themselves about specific points of halachah and canon. That makes sense, really. I'm not Jewish, and I'd be willing to support the idea of a literary device.
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:41 pm
RoseRose kleokriesel Lilith was created from dirt - just like Adam - at the same time as Adam. He wanted her to submit to him (most people think of this as sexually, but it can be just in general) but she wouldn't because she knew they were equals. Adam complained to God so God kicked her out of Eden and replaced her with Eve the quiet and submissive. Lilith begat the Lilim (never heard of Asmodeaus) who flew around and gave men wet dreams. Early Jews demonized her in order to teach women that sexiness and rebellion are evil. When that stopped working in the Christian church, they pretty much eliminated her altogether.
As to when she originated, I've found 2300 BCE and that Levite priests wrote her into the Bible. Source? And Biblical quotes? You make a lot of interesting claims, but I'd love to see the source material for this.
She's supposed to represent the non-human (the midrash I read said she was made out of a different material than Adam). I don't see her as a feminist symbol like others do. Also, she was a great way to explain SIDS back in the day, since people didn't know why infants randomly died. Lilith was supposedly the demon that took babies' souls. Which is why some Jews put a talisman containing the names of the three angels who ran her out of Eden over their babies' cribs.
The only thing that confuses me is that Adam was supposed to be a genderless being, and the midrash makes it sound like he is a man, because Eve is made after Lilith runs off. I think this was a way rabbis attempted to bridge the gap between the two human creation stories in Genesis.
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