Welcome to Gaia! ::

The United Science Fiction Guild [A sci-fi, future community

Back to Guilds

 

 

Reply The United Science Fiction Guild; Discusion
Real Life Mecha Goto Page: 1 2 3 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Ryu Deepse

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:26 pm


I've been thinking about it and ti seems that real life mecha might not be tha far off.
Power Source
What people against mecha love to point at at as flaw. Welll New Fusion reactors using Helium3 seems to be a possibility.
Movement
Most likely electric motors. Hydraulics, though efective, are rather slow and hard to maintain.
Weapons
Conventional weaponry would most likely be used. Anything past that is beyond our knowledge unless plasma is used but that is tricky.
So post any other proablems and I'll answer to the best of my knowledge.Do you think it will work. Do you think it won't?
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 1:22 pm


Wow... I honestly never thought about that.

I guess mecha's that fly around jet shoes would be hard to pull off...

I bet that they would start out more like the mechs from the Battletech series.

Stability might be a problem, but I guess that it would have the advantage over wheeles and track vehicles if it could get that down.

Elfonso
Captain


Auren Shiro

PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2007 3:13 pm


Until the development of magic armor (so to speak) a mecha is mere a giant walking target. A Jet Fighter and some dude with a targeting laser would make a mockery out of a mecha. You're slow. You're plodding. You won't be able to fly. Your armor would be a thin sheet of steel. Thin enough that most assault rifles will go through it at medium ranges (Said Assault Rifles use 5.7mm x 23mm rounds). You're not going to be more mobile. You require far more maitenance then an equivalent amount of main battle tanks or attack helicopters, speaking of which, fulfill its role better, and cheaper.

The magic armor in question, would have to spend a gram or two of mass to stop a .50 caliber round. That's heavy machine gun round yes, but a lot of stuff carries a fifty cal. This armor must also stop it without being ablative either. You're now asking for a lot out of a gram or two of armor. Anything bigger, such as 120mm cannons, GAU-8 Avengers, stuff like that, will still make a mockery of your armor. For reference, a GAU-8 Avenger will punch through a foot of steel and keep going, and leaving the 1 ft x 1 ft x 1 ft block steel molten. As for explosive strength, I'd say one gram has to be able to resist a pound of TNT before being remotely useful.

Even then you now have your magic armor. Stick it on a tank for cheaper and be done with it. Or even better. A helicopter. Hell, if you have a Helium 3 Fusion Reactor, stick it on an Apache, and have the ultimate in long-range attack craft. Jet Propelled Airplanes are a no-no, unless you have them entirely turbine driven. You still have to toss something out the back to go forward.


The only real feasible mecha for quite a while is most likely power armor. And even then, you're Rocket Propelled Grenade bait. God forbid you bump into the bigger Russian RPGs. Those things can Mission-Kill an Abrams Main Battle Tank (Read: Current U.S. Military Main Battle Tank.)
PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:06 pm


I was talking like Batlemech Mechs

I see what you're saying. But it would be faster than say a tank especially through forest like areas. And who said it would be for an assault role. I saw it more as a scout like the"Chicken walkers" from Star Wars. Judging by the way technology is going, it'd probably be remote-controlled so piercing bullets wouldn't be an issue unless it hit circuitry or wiring or such.Apaches are slow and short range unlite a jet or better yet a VTOl Jet and if you way it or other flying craft down they cant fly very much or very fast. As for power Armor, well the problem with that is the human element. They'd have to be custom made because soldiers have different sizes and shapes so they'd be expensive.

Ryu Deepse


Auren Shiro

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:57 pm


I know.

You don't have the armor for them to be *remotely* useful. It's a sad day when five guys with an HMG and assault rifles can bring down your multimillion dollar scout vehicle. Simply put, you get owned by assault rifles. Don't bother. Again, a Hummer, which can armor itself against bullets, will be more effective in a scout role. Mk. I Eyeball is always better then the latest ubersatellite.

Apaches are quite fast. They go about 165 mph, and have an effective range of 300 miles. That's quite good. Not to mention can carry far more deliverable firepower onto a target as needed. A Jet would have to circle multiple times to deliverable the same amount of firepower that an Apache can do right now. Not to mention the jets guzzle a ludicrous amount of gas. A VTOL drinks even more gas. To the point where they're ridiculously short range for a dubious benefit.

Power Armor doesn't have to be customized. You just design adjustable controls. Just like a car. 3nodding
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:45 pm


How would a Six foot Six guy fit into a power armor for a 5 foot 5 guy? And how is a hummer going to get through a tree in the road? Its not. VTOL Jets dont use any more than a jet when flying normally. And who said multimillion dollar. and by the way Dragon Skin Ceramic armor is pretty good at stopping assault rifles. Cover the thing in that and you're set.

Ryu Deepse


Auren Shiro

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 4:55 pm


Then do what the army does for vehicles. Select a certain body type and have height guide-lines. If you want to use VTOL for a VTOL capable jet, you're going to burn a lot more fuel doing the same thing a conventional take off would do.

A Hummer would go around said tree. Or even better, the guys would get out and continue on foot.

There's no reason for giant mecha. They're walking targets that some dude with a Soviet RPG from thirty years ago will kill in one shot. Same thing with M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tanks. Current generation Leopards and Challangers can survive a hit or two, and remain semi-combat operational.

Dragon Scale failed all of the U.S. Army's tests. Miserably. An M16A2 at 50 yards, the second shot out of a three round burst penetrated the armor. Kevlar wouldn't go down like that. Not only that, but its much heavier then modern body armor for a dubious increase in protection. Let's also look at the fact that it's glued together. This glue fails in 90 degree temperatures. It fails in 60% or so humidity or greater. In fact, the only good place for Dragon Scale armor would be indoors. 68 degrees, in 20% humidity.

Quite frankly, you're better off with conventional steel armor. Wait, a Giant Mecha's design precludes doing any of the modern armoring techniques, like sloping the armor to have shells ricochet, stuff like that.

In the end, it's a wasteful idea. When two guys with an Javelin Missile Launcher can obliterate three tanks at 4500 yards in the space of a minute twenty, a Mecha would be an even better target because its tall.

The M1A2 Abrams is just under three meters tall (That's about 10 feet), and its considered tall for MBT standards. Now. Apply six meters tall. Oh yeah, you're a huge target that can be seen for quite a distance.

Welcome to the Age of "If you can see it, its dead!" warfare.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:34 pm


Auren Shiro
Then do what the army does for vehicles. Select a certain body type and have height guide-lines. If you want to use VTOL for a VTOL capable jet, you're going to burn a lot more fuel doing the same thing a conventional take off would do.

A Hummer would go around said tree. Or even better, the guys would get out and continue on foot.

There's no reason for giant mecha. They're walking targets that some dude with a Soviet RPG from thirty years ago will kill in one shot. Same thing with M1A2 Abrams Main Battle Tanks. Current generation Leopards and Challangers can survive a hit or two, and remain semi-combat operational.

Dragon Scale failed all of the U.S. Army's tests. Miserably. An M16A2 at 50 yards, the second shot out of a three round burst penetrated the armor. Kevlar wouldn't go down like that. Not only that, but its much heavier then modern body armor for a dubious increase in protection. Let's also look at the fact that it's glued together. This glue fails in 90 degree temperatures. It fails in 60% or so humidity or greater. In fact, the only good place for Dragon Scale armor would be indoors. 68 degrees, in 20% humidity.

Quite frankly, you're better off with conventional steel armor. Wait, a Giant Mecha's design precludes doing any of the modern armoring techniques, like sloping the armor to have shells ricochet, stuff like that.

In the end, it's a wasteful idea. When two guys with an Javelin Missile Launcher can obliterate three tanks at 4500 yards in the space of a minute twenty, a Mecha would be an even better target because its tall.

The M1A2 Abrams is just under three meters tall (That's about 10 feet), and its considered tall for MBT standards. Now. Apply six meters tall. Oh yeah, you're a huge target that can be seen for quite a distance.

Welcome to the Age of "If you can see it, its dead!" warfare.
Dragon Skin can survive a F**ing grenade!And I didn't mean that exactly, I just meant ceramic type armor.If they got out, the;'d lose the hummer. and they couldn't go around in a forest unlike a mech who could step over. Or we could armor it like a tank, essentially a tank but with legs instead of treads.And not if its armored. plus that would give away thier positions so it only has to take one shot per encounter essentially.

Ryu Deepse


Ryu Deepse

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:35 pm


And before I forget theres the intimidation factor. If I saw a giant mech coming towards me, I'd be scared outta my mind. tTats what would happen.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:39 pm


Wikipedia
In another demonstration on the Discovery Channel series "Future Weapons", a Dragon Skin vest withstood numerous rounds from an AK-47, an MP5, an M4 carbine (5.56 x 45 mm), and a point-blank detonation of an M67 grenade. While the vest was heavily damaged (mainly by the grenade), there was no penetration of the actual armor.

Ryu Deepse


Auren Shiro

PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:04 pm


I'll take the word of guys who actually used in the field, whom I often talk to on a fairly regular basis (Read: I'm talking to one right now.) then Future Weapons. 90% of Future Weapons will never be used. That automatic shotgun? Yeah okay. Never gonna happen. Logistics. Metal Storm? Never gonna happen. Again, Logistics. So Future Weapons are 'kewl' but will never be. Ever hear of the XM Assault Rifle? No? Figures. That weapon should be on Future Weapons, because it does everything. But the Army canned it. Why? M16A2 does whatever the XM can, and better.

Besides, if the vest is heavily damaged after a grenade, then you are a mess of ruptured guts, broken bones. You will die. AK-47 rounds may be stopped, but they will still crush your lungs, kidneys, intestines. You will die of internal bleeding. Dragon Scale is too expensive for what it can do.

MP5s are eye boogers. s**t has a use. Eye boogers don't. They are terrible weapons. They won't penetrate modern body armor. Why? It shoots pistol rounds. AK-47s are also powerful, but they have no penetration qualities. I can assure you if that you loaded it with 7.62mm Armor Piercing ammo, it'll make a mockery of Dragon Skin. Dragon Skin is crap. Get used to it. Same thing with 5.56mm x 45mm Armor Piercing ammo, which is used against things like Cars. Simply put, Dragon Skin is an overpriced toy that will never be used because it doesn't do anything better then what modern armor does.

Besides, what would you rather wear... a 28 pound kevlar vest with ceramic plates on your back and front, or a 47 pound Dragon Skin vest. This doesn't include your 10 pound rifle, or your 80 pound kit of stuff, or your twenty pound set of ammo... knife... grenades... etc. Again. Dragon Skin belongs indoors, where you don't have to go anywhere. Hell, the armor is useless if you go outside in 90 degree + weather, so why bother? Your armor discs will start sliding off the armor

As for Giant Mecha, scared? Sure, if you're a crowd of people with shotguns and pistols sure. But against a U.S. Army Anti-Tank team? "Ooooh! TARGET PRACTICE LOLOL!" That's a 45k missile for your multi-million dollar walker. And before you direct any meaningful firepower, said AT team will be long gone, wasting your ammo which costs money.(And yes, they will be multi-million dollar vehicles. No infrastructure exists to support construction. Thus, to make the money back on such development, they're going to inflate the price.)

So, when you can tell me how cost effective it is to trade an RPG for a multi-million dollar vehicle, then we can talk. Until then, giant mecha usable for any real military purpose will be ridiculous, and even when feasible, there's nothing that an attack chopper or tank can't do that's better then what the silly walker can do.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:47 pm


Auren Shiro
I'll take the word of guys who actually used in the field, whom I often talk to on a fairly regular basis (Read: I'm talking to one right now.) then Future Weapons. 90% of Future Weapons will never be used. That automatic shotgun? Yeah okay. Never gonna happen. Logistics. Metal Storm? Never gonna happen. Again, Logistics. So Future Weapons are 'kewl' but will never be. Ever hear of the XM Assault Rifle? No? Figures. That weapon should be on Future Weapons, because it does everything. But the Army canned it. Why? M16A2 does whatever the XM can, and better.
Besides, if the vest is heavily damaged after a grenade, then you are a mess of ruptured guts, broken bones. You will die. AK-47 rounds may be stopped, but they will still crush your lungs, kidneys, intestines. You will die of internal bleeding. Dragon Scale is too expensive for what it can do.
MP5s are eye boogers. s**t has a use. Eye boogers don't. They are terrible weapons. They won't penetrate modern body armor. Why? It shoots pistol rounds. AK-47s are also powerful, but they have no penetration qualities. I can assure you if that you loaded it with 7.62mm Armor Piercing ammo, it'll make a mockery of Dragon Skin. Dragon Skin is crap. Get used to it. Same thing with 5.56mm x 45mm Armor Piercing ammo, which is used against things like Cars. Simply put, Dragon Skin is an overpriced toy that will never be used because it doesn't do anything better then what modern armor does.
Besides, what would you rather wear... a 28 pound kevlar vest with ceramic plates on your back and front, or a 47 pound Dragon Skin vest. This doesn't include your 10 pound rifle, or your 80 pound kit of stuff, or your twenty pound set of ammo... knife... grenades... etc. Again. Dragon Skin belongs indoors, where you don't have to go anywhere. Hell, the armor is useless if you go outside in 90 degree + weather, so why bother? Your armor discs will start sliding off the armor
As for Giant Mecha, scared? Sure, if you're a crowd of people with shotguns and pistols sure. But against a U.S. Army Anti-Tank team? "Ooooh! TARGET PRACTICE LOLOL!" That's a 45k missile for your multi-million dollar walker. And before you direct any meaningful firepower, said AT team will be long gone, wasting your ammo which costs money.(And yes, they will be multi-million dollar vehicles. No infrastructure exists to support construction. Thus, to make the money back on such development, they're going to inflate the price.)
So, when you can tell me how cost effective it is to trade an RPG for a multi-million dollar vehicle, then we can talk. Until then, giant mecha usable for any real military purpose will be ridiculous, and even when feasible, there's nothing that an attack chopper or tank can't do that's better then what the silly walker can do.
Hence wh we're putting it on a mech.Duh. ANt I'd like to see kevlar ceramic plates survive a direct grenade blast and IMetals torm looks promising for law Enforcement. (i'm tired now but I'll post more later.

Ryu Deepse


Auren Shiro

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 10:01 am


Metal Storm? Law Enforcement? Are you nuts? Why don't we just give them tactical nuclear weapons and be done with it since the effect would be the same thing. I'm sure the army has some Davy Crocketts lying around for personal use.

Level VI Kevlar with the ceramic plates in can actually make the wearer survive. Injured yes, but the M79 won't leave him a bleeding mess. A block of ceramics found in Level VI kevlar armor are the same you find in you know... tank armor.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:02 pm


Dragon Skin is essentially the same thing(on a lower level but higher levels are in the works) excpt it has higher mobility and absorbs the impact.

Metal storm as in a 4 barreled pistol. 1 real bullet and 3 varying degrees of less than lethal bullets or something similar.

Ryu Deepse


Auren Shiro

PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:16 pm


Dragon Skin is redikulously fragile. You sacrifice protection for dubious mobility. Besides, the armor isn't even good. It gets destroyed by bullets. Kevlar doesn't get destroyed by bullets unless you're using stuff that isn't approved by the Geneva Conventions. Like... 35mm autocannons. Other then that, a Level VI vest is pretty much the ultimate in personal protection. Also, consider the fact that a bunch of guys in the Army that I know said they wouldn't trust Dragon Skin with their lives. That should tell you how worthless it is.

Metal Storm is a one barrel system that can be utilized to fire from one to however many shots in the cartridge. That means, you can have a single bullet of twenty bullets. Metal Storm's shtick is that all the shots are perfectly accurate since they fire at the same time. You also can't change ammunitions in a Metal Storm. To do so, means you need to take it apart, rewire everything and then put it together.

Compare to "Change Magazine" for a conventional weapon.

Please, know what you're talking about. So far, I haven't seen any decent counters to anything I've said. You have not addressed its vulnerability to weapons of any sort, the lack of armor that can be carried on it, actual fueling of the machine, or actual mobility.

Also, "Future Weapons" is 100% Marketing by the corporations who made those weapons.
Reply
The United Science Fiction Guild; Discusion

Goto Page: 1 2 3 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum
//
//

// //

Have an account? Login Now!

//
//