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 Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 11:45 am
I understand that Rand proposed a new philosophy of Objectivism through publications of her novels... but did she actually have a significant impact upon American or World history? Did people actually recognize and adopt her beliefs, and cause change within the political system, or did she just cause people to sit and think: "Oh, how interesting," and then just walk away?
From what I know about history, her publications of objectivism occured at a time when the opposite was being advocated as a social system. For example, only a few decades before, T. Roosevelt, Taft, and Wilson worked to eliminate trusts, and also brought an end to the lasseiz fare capitalist policy that objectivsm seems to employ. This progressive mind-set continues through WW's I and II, into the 60's, and to today, when even now people are proposing more and more socialist ideas.
I'm just curious what role Rand played in all of this... if she played one at all?
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 4:49 pm
There have been plenty of people who have done more than just look at Objectivism and think it was interesting and walk away. People have made it a real way for them to try to live their lives and I've also recently been shown a couple successful businesses being run on Objectivist principles. I think I've heard some place before (yeah, I don't have the source available, I don't recall where it was, so don't take my word for it if you find it too suspicious) also that on some big survey of people asked what was the most influential book in their life Atlas Shrugged came in at number two. Just know this is still a real minority of people, hence why you still seem to keep seeing such socialist trends being pushed in government - the government is still being run pretty much on the basis of whatever most people want, for better or worse whatever that happens to be (if most people were really well educated about issues and intelligent and honest this would be a fine thing, but considering how ill educated and/or dishonest the majority of people are on political issues, this really isn't hard to make things go poorly steadily. The question is just what will happen first by now: Will you get more intelligence and honesty in decision making to take place, or will the system run itself into the ground? I hope for the first option, but unfortunately expect at this rate it may well be the second.)
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Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:06 pm
I see...
But what about an impact historically? I see the importance that people today place on her books... but I'm still curious about an actual historical impact upon american history, from around the time of her life.
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:53 pm
I'm sure a few things could be found, but not that many. You wanna see the impact she has on history? Call me back in 500 years, we'll check it out.
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:55 pm
what kind of impact are you looking for?
In the first place, Ayn Rand wouldn't subscribe to any roles society would have dictated on her. She is a writer first, then a philosopher. Quoting Ayn Rand herself, she said:
"The motive and purpose of my writing is the projection of an ideal man. The portrayal of a moral ideal, as my ultimate literary goal, as an end in itself - to which any didactic, intellectual or philosophical values contained in a novel are only the means." (The Goal of My Writing, October-November 1963)
IMPACT? It's on the millions of individuals she has influenced to lead an Objectivist life, inspired by her work. You might never know it, but a great number of significant people on history could have been inspired by Ayn Rand. They did not go saying, "hey, i'm successful 'cause I read Ayn Rand." But you'll recognize it on how they lead their lives. I stressed on Individuals, not any groups or other collectivists' movement. Sure, just like in Atlas Shrugged, all the Fountainheads can join forces to overthrow the looters' world. In her Romantic Manifesto, she said that the "Manifesto is not issued in the name of an organization or a movement." She was only speaking for herself. would there be such movement in the future, the book would have only inspired that to come into being.
IMPACT? You should also be aware that not all great works are honored by the society, so as to have a historical impact. I might be getting way out of context, but here's Howard Roark of Fountainhead in his defense speech before a judge:
"Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received - hatred. The great creators - the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors - stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." (Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead)
don't go looking for impact on history. make her have an impact on your own history.
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:06 pm
bluecherry ... I think I've heard some place before (yeah, I don't have the source available, I don't recall where it was, so don't take my word for it if you find it too suspicious) also that on some big survey of people asked what was the most influential book in their life Atlas Shrugged came in at number two. Just know this is still a real minority of people, hence why you still seem to keep seeing such socialist trends being pushed in government... yep, in almost all bookstores i go to, or even online, they would promote Atlas Shrugged as 2nd most influential book in the US. Bible, being the first one. what an irony. re: minority of people, that's very true. in our university, my fellow Rand readers and i founded UP Prime Movers three years ago, a school organization proioritizing individual excellence above all. in terms of number, as compared to other school organizations and fraternities, we're not doing great. but we treasure that small number because we know that despite being a minority, we know what we believe in and in what we want to happen as compared to other groups lost in "responding" to what they think the society wants. individual growth first, individual excellence.
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Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 10:36 pm
dagny slug what kind of impact are you looking for? In the first place, Ayn Rand wouldn't subscribe to any roles society would have dictated on her. She is a writer first, then a philosopher. Quoting Ayn Rand herself, she said: "The motive and purpose of my writing is the projection of an ideal man. The portrayal of a moral ideal, as my ultimate literary goal, as an end in itself - to which any didactic, intellectual or philosophical values contained in a novel are only the means." (The Goal of My Writing, October-November 1963) IMPACT? It's on the millions of individuals she has influenced to lead an Objectivist life, inspired by her work. You might never know it, but a great number of significant people on history could have been inspired by Ayn Rand. They did not go saying, "hey, i'm successful 'cause I read Ayn Rand." But you'll recognize it on how they lead their lives. I stressed on Individuals, not any groups or other collectivists' movement. Sure, just like in Atlas Shrugged, all the Fountainheads can join forces to overthrow the looters' world. In her Romantic Manifesto, she said that the "Manifesto is not issued in the name of an organization or a movement." She was only speaking for herself. would there be such movement in the future, the book would have only inspired that to come into being. IMPACT? You should also be aware that not all great works are honored by the society, so as to have a historical impact. I might be getting way out of context, but here's Howard Roark of Fountainhead in his defense speech before a judge: "Throughout the centuries there were men who took first steps down new roads armed with nothing but their own vision. Their goals differed, but they all had this in common: that the step was first, the road new, the vision unborrowed, and the response they received - hatred. The great creators - the thinkers, the artists, the scientists, the inventors - stood alone against the men of their time. Every great new thought was opposed. Every great new invention was denounced. The first motor was considered foolish. The airplane was considered impossible. The power loom was considered vicious. Anesthesia was considered sinful. But the men of unborrowed vision went ahead. They fought, they suffered and they paid. But they won." (Ayn Rand, The Fountainhead) don't go looking for impact on history. make her have an impact on your own history. Hmm... Rand impacted millions of people's lives? But they never got around to organizing a political group based off their beliefs? Odd, that in millions of objectivists, there wouldn't be someone with the guts enough to stand up and run for president.... As for your quote from Rand's The Fountainhead, I suppose I'm arguing with her when I say this, but not everything new is going to be beneficial. Hitler's prosecution of the jews was somewhat of a "new" philosophy. New Age idealisms are "new." Communism was "new." Fast food restaurants are "new." Should these be given special treatment, and not met with initial resentment? No, all people should be skeptical and untrusting of any and all things "new." Besides, it's in human nature to be afraid of change. Fear of the unknown, no?
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:27 am
Quote: Hmm... Rand impacted millions of people's lives? But they never got around to organizing a political group based off their beliefs? Odd, that in millions of objectivists, there wouldn't be someone with the guts enough to stand up and run for president.... organize a "political" group? for what? run for president? for what? ayn rand believe in "politics" but not in the government. politics exists not only in government. and as bluecherry pointed out, had there been ayn rand readers who gathered as a group, it would be a minor one (such as our school organization). and, in my opinion, certainly not as a political group. Quote: As for your quote from Rand's The Fountainhead, I suppose I'm arguing with her when I say this, but not everything new is going to be beneficial. Hitler's prosecution of the jews was somewhat of a "new" philosophy. New Age idealisms are "new." Communism was "new." Fast food restaurants are "new." Should these be given special treatment, and not met with initial resentment? No, all people should be skeptical and untrusting of any and all things "new." Besides, it's in human nature to be afraid of change. Fear of the unknown, no? pardon me for not agreeing on the human nature to be afraid of change. were you afraid when the walkman was replaced by disk players, and then by iPods? how about the snail mail to email, telephone and mobile phones? do you associate "development" with resentment? not all people are skeptical and untrusting. especially if you know that this "great new" creation will work. sure, not everything new is beneficial. it's not to be generalized. and besides, it's common sense. you will need to be objective in considering what are beneficial from not. ayn rand said "every great new thought" and "every great new invention," not just about anything new.
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:41 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:47 am
Hey slug! I see you on the first page of the memberlist now. Nice job. smile
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:02 am
Skip_dAnconia Hey slug! I see you on the first page of the memberlist now. Nice job. smile yeah, i was surprised too. somehow i think it has got to do with the username. but maybe not. smile
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:07 am
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:37 am
Hey! I just saw on the front page the promotion too. Congrats!
And there's the survey. Excellent. Hah, see? It does exist. razz
Also of note should be that just because a bunch of people have a common goal, there may still be some debate and not a solid consensus over how to achieve the goal. For example, I believe around the last U.S. congressional elections time, the time where the Democrats took the majority back, I recall seeing in different blogs by Objectivists and such debate over who wanted to keep voting for Republicans in hopes that they'd still be the party killing us a little more slowly at least though this gap in speed seems to be ever closing versus those who wanted to vote for the Democrats in hopes of creating a deadlock between the congress and the President to try to get less things that weren't of an obvious necessity passed into law, the problem with that second option that was proposed being when even both of those parties agree on something as being necessary still does not always end up being just what Objectivists would call the necessary things. So each of the propositions had some kind of an up side and some drawbacks and the debate was who thought which option was the overall better.
EDIT: Also, that would be funny if promotions were based just on names after all this semi-mysteriousness. Oh no, I haven't been promoted not because I'm developmentally behind or any such perfectly logical thing, but instead just because my name lacks a referance to an Atlas shrugged character. lol
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:57 am
bluecherry EDIT: Also, that would be funny if promotions were based just on names after all this semi-mysteriousness. Oh no, I haven't been promoted not because I'm developmentally behind or any such perfectly logical thing, but instead just because my name lacks a referance to an Atlas shrugged character. lol exactly the reason why i thought it could have something to do with the names. you're more active than I in defending promoting Objectivism to the looters. lol
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Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:25 am
Promoting it to the looters? Crap, may I not be wasting my breath typing to just the stubbornly blind and deaf by choice. I'd like to see some people who might actually be open to giving it a fair evaluation for themselves be among those who see what I've been saying. But also, I think my extra activity may be more than counter balanced by being less well informed. This I figure is more likely the case than just usernames. So really, enjoy that you've probably in some way earned your promotion even if it hasn't been directly stated. 3nodding
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