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 Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:13 pm
So, is there an alphabet?
And how are the words in the language pronounced.
These two are keys to learning any foreign language.
If you know, post it.
=]
I'll put it all in my post.
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 5:48 pm
The alphabet's just like English, except that in some words, an accent (like in French) is added above vowels (a,e,i,o,u) which changes the pronunciation, slightly.
pronunciations in parentheses/brackets
For instance, "fear" (farr) means "man" but "féar" (fair) means "grass".
á makes an "aw" sound in a word "trá" is pronounced (traw) and means "beach".
é makes an "ey" (the "-ey" in "hey") sound. (look back at the fear and féar thing :3)
ú makes an "oo" sound whereas a "u" would make an "uh" sound. "brú" is pronounced (broo) and means "pressure".
í is pronounced "ee". "Míle" is pronounced "MEE-leh" and means "thousand".
ó doesn't sound much different from o. ó in Irish is a word itself and means "from". It's pronounced just like the English "oh".
Not every word in the language conforms to those rules and with some words the pronunciation gets quite irregular. For example, "sea" means "yes" and is pronounced "shah". But "níl" means "no" and is pronounced "neel"
There are lots of consonant "clusters" that you can learn that make pronunciation easier.
Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk".
"bh" is another one and is pronounced like English "v". "Mh" also sounds like "v"
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Posted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 7:36 pm
Rakhmaninov Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk". That shouldn't be the case. Orthographic "ch" in Irish should represent a dorsal fricative like German "ch".
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 4:40 am
PAnZuRiEL Rakhmaninov Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk". That shouldn't be the case. Orthographic "ch" in Irish should represent a dorsal fricative like German "ch". well its not german nor is it anything like german. its irish and it is pronounced like a k
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:27 am
Miss_Chicken_Royale PAnZuRiEL Rakhmaninov Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk". That shouldn't be the case. Orthographic "ch" in Irish should represent a dorsal fricative like German "ch". well its not german nor is it anything like german. its irish and it is pronounced like a k I know it's not German, but that doesn't mean there's no phonological overlap. I'm not so hot with Irish orthography, all I know about it is what I've read on the relevant Wikipedia article. But from what I gather, a digraph containing an "h" should be a lenited (weakened) sound. "bh" and "mh" weaken from /b/ and /m/ to /w/ or /v/; "th" weakens from /t/ to (usually) /h/; "ph" weakens from /p/ to /f/; "fh" weakens from a fricative to being completely silent. By the same token, "ch" should weaken from a /c/ sound, a stop, to a dorsal fricative sound. All of my independent forays into the language have reinforced this paradigm. Are you telling me now that I'm totally wrong, and so is every source I've taken my information from?
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 6:19 am
PAnZuRiEL Miss_Chicken_Royale PAnZuRiEL Rakhmaninov Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk". That shouldn't be the case. Orthographic "ch" in Irish should represent a dorsal fricative like German "ch". well its not german nor is it anything like german. its irish and it is pronounced like a k I know it's not German, but that doesn't mean there's no phonological overlap. I'm not so hot with Irish orthography, all I know about it is what I've read on the relevant Wikipedia article. But from what I gather, a digraph containing an "h" should be a lenited (weakened) sound. "bh" and "mh" weaken from /b/ and /m/ to /w/ or /v/; "th" weakens from /t/ to (usually) /h/; "ph" weakens from /p/ to /f/; "fh" weakens from a fricative to being completely silent. By the same token, "ch" should weaken from a /c/ sound, a stop, to a dorsal fricative sound. All of my independent forays into the language have reinforced this paradigm. Are you telling me now that I'm totally wrong, and so is every source I've taken my information from? i em live in ireland...... im irish..... ive been learning irish 18 years like..... so u believe what ya want hun ok
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:39 am
PAnZuRiEL Rakhmaninov Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk". That shouldn't be the case. Orthographic "ch" in Irish should represent a dorsal fricative like German "ch". Mmhm. Well, I'm not a phonetics expert. All I know is that if I read a phrase like "pronounce the dorsal fricative" in a language book I would have been a tad confused. I have always heard "ch" pronounced as "k". "Ach" is pronounced "ahk" and that's an accurate representation of how it sounds when it's spoken. I guess I'm too much of an amateur to have a conversation with you about it; you seem to be high up. : (
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:44 am
Rakhmaninov PAnZuRiEL Rakhmaninov Example, "ch" is pronounced like English "k" and is in many, many, many words in Irish. "Gach" means "every" and you pronounce it "gahk". That shouldn't be the case. Orthographic "ch" in Irish should represent a dorsal fricative like German "ch". Mmhm. Well, I'm not a phonetics expert. All I know is that if I read a phrase like "pronounce the dorsal fricative" in a language book I would have been a tad confused. I have always heard "ch" pronounced as "k". "Ach" is pronounced "ahk" and that's an accurate representation of how it sounds when it's spoken. I guess I'm too much of an amateur to have a conversation with you about it; you seem to be high up. : ( you might not be an expert but ya cant go by what u read on the internet either. we learned irish in school.... speak it from time to time.... and in all 18 years of hearing words with ch like chonic and chuaigh its pronounced ku-ni-ck and all
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:50 am
Well I have audio evidence for my assertions as well. The words "Gaelach" and "maorach" are repeated ad nauseum in this song by the woman singing it, a native speaker of Irish. What sound do you perceive the final consonant in those two words (as she pronounces them, not as you do) as being? Is this different from your personal pronunciation of these two words?
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 8:57 am
PAnZuRiEL Well I have audio evidence for my assertions as well. The words "Gaelach" and "maorach" are repeated ad nauseum in this song by the woman singing it, a native speaker of Irish. What sound do you perceive the final consonant in those two words (as she pronounces them, not as you do) as being? Is this different from your personal pronunciation of these two words? listen.... its ch... its said k ... kuh... yeah for most words... ok? cool.
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:00 am
Miss_Chicken_Royale PAnZuRiEL Well I have audio evidence for my assertions as well. The words "Gaelach" and "maorach" are repeated ad nauseum in this song by the woman singing it, a native speaker of Irish. What sound do you perceive the final consonant in those two words (as she pronounces them, not as you do) as being? Is this different from your personal pronunciation of these two words? listen.... its ch... its said k ... kuh... yeah for most words... ok? cool. It would help me to learn if you just play along and humour me for a moment. Or are you saying you hear a "k" while she's singing?
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:00 am
I see what you mean. If I were asked to differentiate between her and someone who just pronounced words with "ch" as just as a regular "k", I'd just say "The girl has a stronger accent". How would you represent the pronunciation for "ch" for a person with no phonetics education being consistent with her pronunciation?
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:05 am
Rakhmaninov I see what you mean. If I were asked to differentiate between her and someone who just pronounced words with "ch" as just as a regular "k", I'd just say "The girl has a stronger accent". How would you represent the pronunciation for "ch" for a person with no phonetics education being consistent with her pronunciation? The sound doesn't exist in English, so I'd rely on analogy with German (as indeed I did). The only problem there is that the German "dorsal fricative" actually comprises two different sounds which are distinct in Gaeilge, but not in German. The "ch" sound of German "Bach" is in Gaeilge the "broad" version of the sound; the "ch" of German "ich" is the "slender" version of the sound. Germans can't tell the difference between them, but the distinction is important in Irish. If you pronounce a broad "ch" in German where it should be a narrow one, they'll just think you have a funny accent. If you make the same mistake in Irish, you've just said a different word than you intended. Or so I had believed up until now, at any rate. Also note that speakers of non-rhotic English dialects will generally produce "Bach" to rhyme with "bark". So I understand where you're coming from. I'd say the phonology of Irish is currently being altered by contact with English.
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Posted: Sun Jun 28, 2009 9:11 am
PAnZuRiEL Rakhmaninov I see what you mean. If I were asked to differentiate between her and someone who just pronounced words with "ch" as just as a regular "k", I'd just say "The girl has a stronger accent". How would you represent the pronunciation for "ch" for a person with no phonetics education being consistent with her pronunciation? The sound doesn't exist in English, so I'd rely on analogy with German (as indeed I did). The only problem there is that the German "dorsal fricative" actually comprises two different sounds which are distinct in Gaeilge, but not in German. The "ch" sound of German "Bach" is in Gaeilge the "broad" version of the sound; the "ch" of German "ich" is the "slender" version of the sound. Germans can't tell the difference between them, but the distinction is important in Irish. If you pronounce a broad "ch" in German where it should be a narrow one, they'll just think you have a funny accent. If you make the same mistake in Irish, you've just said a different word than you intended. Or so I had believed up until now, at any rate. You've said a different word, but it's negligibly different. It might be insulting to someone with an education in the phonetics, like you (if it was insulting, then sorry) but for someone who's casually just looking to learn the language, it'd make little difference. I wouldn't be put off if I heard a person pronouncing "Ich" as "ikk" and then I heard Sylvia Plath pronouncing the same word like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hHjctqSBwM (1:15 - 1:17). I'd know that they were the same word.
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