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Alright, well I've been thinking alot about this subject. I posted it in the PLG and the Abortion Debate Guild, but I think it is an issue that has very strong ties with some peoples views of feminism and I think it would be interesting to see what people have to say. I don't mean this to be offensive, but since it is dealing with a delicate subject, I realize that it may illicit strong feelings. I will moderate this thread and if it becomes too emotionally disturbing I will delete it. I truly want this to spur discussion, so even if you disagree, please try to explain WHY you disagree. Anyways, I hope this can be a positive discussion. I realize that I used a bit of loaded diction, but I was a bit emotional when I wrote this. Again, if it is inappropriate I will delete/lock this thread.

The past few days have been a bit odd for me. I've been unsettled about life and issues in a way that is new for me. It's hard to express in words exactly what I've experienced but I think it boils down to a confusion and hopelessness for humanity.

I've been reading more pro-choice articles than is probably good for my soul. I read them looking for a glimmer of something to allow me to see some good in their movement. I looked for empowerment, I looked for justice, and I even looked for some moral good. I looked. What I found was a numb assortment of selfish wants and mortal desires. I found women broken by the establishment of abortion. Women who rely on abortion as a way to put their bodies and selves back into submission. It is about control. But it goes much further than the control over self it is so often portrayed. I found women who are fighting for a cause not because of the moral implications of killing their offspring, but because they are terrified of a world where they would be unable to control their own destinies by means of asserting ultimate control over the destinies of their children.

Control is what it comes down to. After countless years of subservience, women have decided to assert their dominance by enslaving a new group. A weaker group. Because of the injustices of the past, women are inflicting their own injustices for the future. It is quite reminiscent of a certain time, in a certain place, where another group of downtrodden rose to fight not their oppressors, but those who were weak and could be easily overthrown.

Abortion is cowardly. Instead of overthrowing the patriarchal society and reaching for a potential inclusive of maternity, women have pushed aside their very femininity for mans ideology of unrepentant strength. We have become who we hated. We have become heartless monsters trampling anyone who stands in way of our superficial success.

Why has it become acceptable for the oppressed to continue the chain of violence and brut order? Why have we allowed ourselves to sink to the level of the slave owner? Why are we destroying life, not in order for us to live, but in order for us to flourish in the hideous world we refuse to abolish.

This is not acceptable. If our answer to fascism is the domination of the weak, how are we any better than our oppressors? I do not believe that people begin atrocities with the intention to force others into the subjection that they have suffered. Or maybe they do. Maybe this is some sort of revenge via transference...If we can't kill the despot, kill the children.


We have become the monster.

I think they do go hand and hand in regards to woman's rights. Of course it was not always the case. When two men convinced the National Organization for Women that without abortion we can not hope to be taken seriously in a mans world, a chain reaction of fear and oppression began. I know that not every women or even most or some women truly think that they are inforcing some sort of overt control over their children. I am talking largly about the philosophical implications of abortion being a "woman's right" rather than any one individual woman's decision.

That said, I think many women unconciously reinforce the original oppresive action through abortion because of the messages they receive from interested parties.



As far as a woman who is carrying a child incompatible with life: I believe that it is the woman's choice whether or not to continue the pregancy. Of course, by the time most genetic testing can be done, it is far past the point of a "regular" abortion and we move into the rhelm of much more physically and emotionally painful abortions. Regardless, if the child is truly incompatible with life, I see no reason to contiue a pregnacy in vain if it is not what the mother wishes to do.

Now if the child is not incompatible with life, but merely disabled, I can not see a moral justification for aborting such a child. This begins a line of reasoning where we are judged worthy of life based on certain functional criteria rather than our inhearant self.



This is another example of a victim turning around and victimizing another person. While I believe the act of rape is abhorant, I can not justify killing what I consider to be another person who did not ask to be created any more than you asked to be violated by the rapist. Our collective society so often portrays the child of rape as the "rapists child" rather than the child of both the mother and the father. This mentality enables already emotionally fragile women to victimize their own offspring because of association with the rapist. I agree that the poor woman should not have to suffer further, but will killing her offspring rectify the damage done by his father? We must abandon the overwhelming hopelessness of labeling the fetus as simply the "rapists child" and give support to the woman so that she may see the reality and humanity of HER child.

'

While I could argue the point that there are many many people waiting to adopt, and many many families looking to specifically adopt special needs children, I am going to go a different routt in keeping with my original assertion. Adoption is demonized because it represents a complete lack of control. Once the child is born, you have no say in its life or future. It is a terrifying thought that there is a person in the world who you created and yet have no relationship with. The concept of adoption flys directly in the face of a society that tells us that we must first control our reproduction, and then have hope to control ourselves. Adoption then, is not seen as a viable solution because it creates a sense of entrophy rather than the final and definate solution of abortion.



I agree this is a bad argument. While it is a fact that a good portion of our generation has been anihliated by abortion, obviously our significant other has survived and thus any relivence is lost. Basically, this argument is misguided. Those who have been lost, have been lost. We can lament their loss, but not much else...who knows if we killed the next Einstien or the next Hitler, all we know is their life has been cut short. The argument should be the horror of so many lives lost.



This is where we disagree. I think that the mindset behind the movement is one of oppression, regardless of the individuals personal reasons for abortion. The sociatal press for abortion is one that claims that we as women can not be equal to a man without asserting control over our bodies. The underlying message,however, is that we can not be equal to a man or participate in a mans world without subjegating and victimizing the group that is holding us back- Our children.

I'm pro-choice, but I'm tired of all the Pro-Choice-Must-Kill-Children bitches. They do, indeed seem selfish, and I can see why anybody would be disenchanted with them However, I want to bring to light a side of the pro-choice belief that isn't seen often: Men probably push women into abortions nearly as often as the push them into giving birth. So, yes, I'm pro-choice. But, just as I don't see life as the only choice, I don't see abortion as the only choice.

No offense, but you pro-choicers are cowardly, selfish, heartless monsters who support the patriarchy, and are, oh gods, unfeminine? That's no better than pro-choicers accusing pro-lifers of being anti-woman. I'm pro-choice, and if I have to pro-life to be a feminist, nevermind.

This is what I think about abortion. Forcing pregnancy is wrong. Forcing abortion is wrong. Choosing pregnancy is fine, choosing abortion is fine. As long as it's the woman controlling her life, not men or society telling her what to do. Women will not always choose staying pregnant over not staying pregnant even when they have all the resources they need. Women who don't want children, for instance. (There are pro-life childfreers, though, oddly enough.) Some will, some won't.

Now, if there's something completely morally bankrupt about abortion so that no one should ever choose it, then abortion isn't fine. Like using hairspray then discovering, oh s**t, every spray creates a ten foot gap in the o-zone layer. Tell people about the ten foot gap, not that hairspray users are victims of MTV trying to assert control of their hair and/or the atmosphere to be subservient to the MTV Gods. Sure, some hairspray users would be that way, but some of them just want their hair to stay down. Some people are just really irked by their hair being messed up.

...

That turned into a really weird analogy. I shouldn't write posts as soon as I wake up.

Perhaps the analogy wasn't clear. It was actually from a pro-life standpoint, considering it starts out with the assumption abortion -is- murder. To an environmentalist, hairspray users would rip a ten foot hole in the o-zone with each spray, effectively killing the human race via pollution. To a pro-lifer, abortion kills a person (by whatever procedure happens to be performed). Thankfully, hairspray doesn't rip a ten foot hole in the o-zone (anymore). But if it did.

Like I said, it was a weird thing to choose for an analogy... .__.;;

I do appreciate you not judging women who have abortions. 3nodding

I am pro-choice in respects to society. But pro-life in my own philosophy. Even in a situation of rape I would keep the child and do my best to raise it to be tolerant and hopefully create a better generation after my own.

I think education is really the key in all situations. A lot more education should be provided and available for contraceptives, for sex itself, and for child rearing.

I also think that if there were more accomidations for women with children who want to remain in the workforce, less abortions would take place. For example, child care centers, and child leave programs.


I know that sometimes a woman has good reason to have an abortion. I know my great aunt accidently became pregnant at a much older age, and if she were to have the child she would of died. I think it was justified in that situation.

I'm pro-choice. Keep it or don't; it's really not much of my business what my friends are doing with their bodies. It's especially not the business of rich WASPy men, who know very little about a lot of the circumstances in which an abortion might be considered (i.e., unable to afford chilluns, endangerment to health, physical or mental, stuff like that). If you've got the patience to raise children, more power to you; I don't have that much! I'm voluntarily childless (Hippie hates chilluns mad ).

One of my cousins carried a very deformed fetus all the way to term. It didn't live for fifteen minutes outside its mother. Its organs were formed on the outside of its body. Almost killed my cousin on the way out, too. But my family wouldn't let her abort it, so we nearly ended up with two dead people on our hands. (She recovered, though.)

*Goes away, having added her irrelevant babble*

I am Pro Choice

Because If a sperm can count as a child then I have wiped away entire civilaztions off of my chest.

As far as Im concerned your not a human being until your out of the oven.