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| In this case I rule in favour of... |
| Grogan, he has not been auto-hitting and should be allowed to win the fight. |
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50% |
[ 7 ] |
| Minnta, she has brought up a valid point and as a result the fight should be reset and discontinued with neither party being affected by it. |
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50% |
[ 7 ] |
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| Total Votes : 14 |
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 Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:27 am
Tribunal Test: The Case Grogan vs Minnta
The events that have transpired in the OOC forum have led me to believe we need some sort of system in which we can put our faith in to solve our issues. This prototype is a test for a Member Decided Tribunal System.
In this system, both parties will create a topic in the Chatterbox marked appropriately as "Tribunal" and the Topic Title will be the usernames of those involved in the case. Both parties will then use the topic to present their case against the other or defend themselves before using a 2 day poll to decide the winner.
This system will not allow for arguing though, everyone is allowed to have their say in the matter and air their opinion uncensored but you must stay on topic, quote who's point you are countering and then leave it at that. No quoting back and forth: One post to get your view across and a poll to put your vote in. If this works we will implement the system properly in hopes it will not only keep fights out of the main guild but also resolve issues without further issues arising from them.
Okay? We good! NOW LET'S GO!
The Case
This case is the case of Minnta Aloripma [Minnta] versus Groganofthewasteland [Grogan]. Minnta believes that Grogan is auto-hitting and auto-dodging her attacks. Grogan denies this and is backed up by myself [Uchiha Roxas] and a few others.
The fight is between the characters:Reiko Taji a.k.a Whisper a normal human mercenary with guns and what not and Johnathon Price a.k.a The Green Arrow. The fight takes place in Robinson Park and the fight seems to start at this post and this post is also the start of some of the issues.
We ask that you read the full fight before casting your vote and please refrain from voting because you are "friends" or have "issues" with one of the people involved. If you cannot cast an un-biased vote, do not vote.
Now would Grogan and Minnta please step forward and present their cases calmly and concisely so that we can show the members your views on the situation. We're trying to make it as fair as possible.
Thank you all for your time.
This poll will expire in 2 days.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:08 pm
This whole fiasco has start because Minnta has accused me of auto hitting and auto dodging. I respectfully disagree. As a literate Rp'er, I was taught to write in such a way to show both specificity and certain trends and what not. Everything I have written up would either happen in full, or my opponent can stop it at a certain point, and counter.
I will go through every part of the fight to show you my thought process:
Post 1, my introduction. The arrow coming from nowhere and taking out Reiko's gun. No, she wouldn't have any real clue that someone was watching her and taking aim because she was focused on Fork's character, Catwoman. Her gun being taken out of the equation would seem like autohitting, but really, there was no feasible way that she, as a human, would know that I was there.
Post 2, She talked to me, so my character nocked a standard arrow, pulled it back, and waited for her to make a move. I have readied an action, in Dungeons and Dragons terms, that I can trigger when she does something. Which she did in her next post, by aiming and shooting at me.
Post 3, During my actions in post 2, she apparently, while keeping her eyes on me, dodged a Capoiera move from Catwoman. Keep in mind, Reiko is a normal human being, albeit a highly trained one. Catwoman has at least a couple more years of experience than she does. She could not feasibly dodge an attack from Catwoman while keeping her eyes on me. Then she pulled her other gun on me, with practiced ease. A well trained archer can nock and arrow, take aim, and fire in the blink of an eye. My thought process for this move was when she took out her gun and aimed at me, I fired, putting the arrow straight down the barrel of the gun. Again, a well trained archer could fire in the blink of an eye. And Oliver Queen, in the comics, where he does things such as split a drop of water from a faucet, has done things like shoot an arrow down the barrel of a gun.
I was being lenient with this move because if I had shot while the gun was being fire, the gun would of exploded and crippled her hand.
Post 4, I took the shot, then nocked another arrow, pulled it back, and shot at her shoulder. Now, as mentioned before, he's a well trained archer, and possibly one of the best marksman in the world. I gave her ample opportunity to dodge this arrow. But my thought process, if she did dodge, was that she would have to dodge to the left. You wouldn't dodge to the right because then the arrow would hit your heart, and you'd be dead. So she would have to dodge to the left. I then came up to swing with my bow. Easy to dodge.
Post 5, The first of many posts where she uses the word twist. This plus her lack of detail, which is prevalent throughout this whole fight, made it hard for me to understand what she was doing. Her response to my swing, which was a parry at an angle to make my bow slide down the swords' length, was about the only technical move she said. Then she said, in her post,she makes a quick series of slashes at the mans neck, arms, and chest.. There was no real detail, as my post mentioned, it was like she was swinging wildly at me.
Now, Green Arrow is competent in a brawl. He may not be Batman, but he knows more than a few martial art styles. Therefore, he would be well trained in a straight up brawl. So my thought process was to stop her from attacking by grabbing her wrist. Right as she made a stab for me. Since her wrist was grabbed, she was open to the strikes to her gut. I then described how I let go of her wrist, stepped around her so that I was facing her back, and whacked her there.
As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, she could of countered at any time, and she had plenty of opportunity. She could of blocked my bow with her free hand and potentially disarm me. If she did that, I would of let it be done. Because I couldn't really do much about it. Both of my limbs were occupied. Any strikes she could of made in response to my attacks would have to hit because I really can't dodge or counter them.
Post 6, She takes the hits of my last post. Again as mentioned, she could of countered. Then she falls into a defensive stance. My response: Flash Bang Grenade Arrow. But aimed at her feet. Simple post. Now if she didn't counter, she would of been blinded, deafened, and lost her balance for a couple seconds, enough for a combo that she wouldn't have any real ability to counter.
She counters by moving to the side and not looking at the flash. That doesn't protect you against the bang part of the flash bang grenade. See, a Flashbang Grenade works in three ways: The flash of the grenade going off would blind you for a few seconds, the sound is so sudden and loud that it deafens for a few seconds, and the fluid in your ears is disrupted, said fluid helping to keep your balance. With that disrupted, she would of lost her balance. A demonstration of that effect for you.
Now in a combat situation, any one of those things can spell bad news. Two or three of them is even worse. So even if she was able to stop the flash, she still would of been too disoriented to do anything about being sent to the ground. Now here's one place where she likely thought I was autodoging:
She moves her head to the side of his punch, slashing her sword at the spot she guesstimated his inner elbow to be through her partial blindness Taken from her post after the Flashbang Grenade went off. It's simple common sense that even the most well trained humans won't be able to dodge well, much less attack because of your loss of balance. So even if I didn't trip her, she more likely than not, still would of been on the ground.
Post 7, I stopped her full combo by stepping on her sword. As I mentioned at the beginning of this post, my way of Rping says that everything can be taken in full, or my opponent can counter at any time. This also applies to when I am attacked. So to prevent her from doing her crazy things that I can barely follow (again, the word twist is in there), which would of ended with a grenade in my quiver (she didn't say it outright, but I could guess that's what was done), I stepped on the flat of her blade and stopped the combo cold.
Now, what she should of done was let go of her blade, and backed away into the shadows, where she had the element of surprise. Something along those lines. The point of it was, she should of let go of her blade.
Post 8, But she didn't let go of her blade and proceeded to try to force his weight off the blade. Then (again, using the word twist, or a tense of the word twist) she did some crazy things that shouldn't even be possible in her current position and ended with again, the grenade down my quiver. Now this is where she complained to Roxas that I was autohitting and auto dodging, but here's my thought process:
The Green Arrow is a well trained marksman and is in really good physical condition. The dude runs on rooftops and uses a bow. As I have mentioned before, that takes skill and good physical conditioning. It also means contrary to what you see in video games, many archers are pretty strong. The average English Longbow has a draw weight (how much force it takes to pull back the string) of anywhere between 80-100 pounds. You're pulling this back with only a couple fingers or your thumb, depending on how you are shooting the bow. A Mongol bow has anywhere from 100-166 pounds of draw. TL biggrin R to be an archer, you have to have muscle. This, combined with the fact The Green Arrow runs on rooftops and likely works out on a daily basis, means he is not a weedy little fellow. Dude's likely at least 180-200 pounds.
And Reiko is trying to pull her sword out from under his boot, with one hand, on the floor? Unless you have superhuman strength, a normal human would not have the necessary leverage to perform such a feat in the position she was in. Not to mention the way she describe kicking at his knees would of been impossible in that position, or would of taken way too much time, when she should of done the simple thing of letting go and backing off.
So in order to end the fight quickly, and because I was way too confused on what she was pulling off, I did the simple thing and shot her in the shoulder. In the position she was in, she would not of been able to do anything to dodge. As mentioned, arrows move extremely quickly, and well trained archers can nock, aim and fire in the blink of an eye. And he already had an arrow nocked and ready to fire when she started trying to tug on her sword.
When I shot, I also described a common sense scenario for anyone who got shot, whether by a bullet or by an arrow. You would be more concerned with getting your a** out of the situation and either taking care of the wound yourself, or seeking a doctor, than continue fighting. Again, she's not a metahuman.
In short, Everything I did in my posts could of been countered at anytime. Anything I said when it came to wounds was common sense. I am not autohitting, The only point I will give Minnta, is that I should be cut up a little. If she had countered in a proper way, I would of taken the hits because it makes sense for my character and his abilities and conditioning. She's not a metahuman, and neither is Green Arrow.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:02 pm
First of all I am glad that there are enough people to see that this is an issue to vote for the victim side and not make this one sided. I'm sadden that there are also thous who do not see what was wrong with Grogan's post. And let it be known I am a personal friend of Minnta, I known her for years both in rp's and out I know she's a good rper who is a good and fair person but with that said in no way I'm taking her side because I'm her friend. If the roles where reversed I would be defending Grogan.
With that said I shall go into reasons why Grogan was auto-hitting.
Though all my eight years of roleplaying from being a noob with bad typing skills to where I am now, I have met many role players with varied skills and been in a wide array of rping but one thing stayed the same for me. Saying 'This attack hits' without giving the person a chance to respond is auto-hitting. Now if it was 'This attack aims for this spot' is not auto-hitting since it gives the second party some impute into the attack as well. Depending on the person you rp with the person can go different ways but just saying the attack hits eliminate what player two can do its like inviting someone over to play games and then give them the broken controller or that there new to the game and you don't tell them how to play so you can win. It only leaves you with a hollow victory and a pissed off friend.
Rping for me is showing respect for your fellow rper and reading the fight I'm seeing little amounts of that here. A good rper knows when to give some leeway to another during fights and not just cripple them to the point they don't want to rp anymore since there's nothing they can do.
You can argue how statistically he should have been able to hit and it works but outright saying this attack hits is clearly morally unfair to the person your fighting and I hope people feel the same way.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:09 pm
Xistund First of all I am glad that there are enough people to see that this is an issue to vote for the victim side and not make this one sided. I'm sadden that there are also thous who do not see what was wrong with Grogan's post. And let it be known I am a personal friend of Minnta, I known her for years both in rp's and out I know she's a good rper who is a good and fair person but with that said in no way I'm taking her side because I'm her friend. If the roles where reversed I would be defending Grogan. With that said I shall go into reasons why Grogan was auto-hitting. Though all my eight years of roleplaying from being a noob with bad typing skills to where I am now I have met many role players with varied skills and been in a wide array of rping but one thing stayed the same for me. Saying 'This attack hits' without giving the person a chance to respond is auto-hitting. Now if it was 'This attack aims for this spot' is not auto-hitting since it gives the second party some impute into the attack as well. Depending on the person you rp with the person can go different ways but just saying the attack hits eliminate what player two can do its like inviting someone over to play games and then give them the broken controller or that there new to the game and you don't tell them how to play so you can win. It only leaves you with a hollow victory and a pissed off friend. Rping for me is showing respect for your fellow rper and reading the fight I'm seeing little amounts of that here. A good rper knows when to give some leeway to another during fights and not just cripple them to the point they don't want to rp anymore since there's nothing they can do. You can argue how statistically he should have been able to hit and it works but outright saying this attack hits is clearly morally unfair to the person your fighting and I hope people feel the same way. Again, it's my style of rping. 'This attack hits' doesn't mean it hits unless you let it hit. If it's countered, well then it doesn't hit now does it?
But some attacks you can't avoid, due to position of the opponents or the situation they are in. If she stabbed me with her sword, and I dodged and grabbed her wrist, she can't really dodge. She would have to block with her free hand, which she had the opportunity to. Block the bow strike to the gut, and she could of disarmed me of a very light and very dangerous weapon.
But she chose to take the hits, and my style of rping is I detailed what happened and every part of the attack IF the attack before it hits. She took the hits, so the attack hit. If she had countered, I would of had to approach from a different way.
My style of rping may look like autohitting, but it really isn't. It requires my opponent to actually sit down, look at the post, and think.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:16 pm
Let me just end this whole thing right here. Your second statement is incorrect, on many many fronts. If she stabbed you with her sword; and you dodge, it's not like she'd just leave her arm forward waiting. The moment you moved she would A) bring her arm down, or B) Pull it back, both of which would dodge that hold. The way you worded the attacks after left no room for dodging or defending without it sounding like she's godmodding. "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." That would have been fine if left, since it would give her apt room to dodge it in her post, however you then followed it up with another attack "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," which left the first one ignored, meaning she would now have to godmod her way out of it.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:19 pm
All Who Have Fallen Let me just end this whole thing right here. Your second statement is incorrect, on many many fronts. If she stabbed you with her sword; and you dodge, it's not like she'd just leave her arm forward waiting. The moment you moved she would A) bring her arm down, or B) Pull it back, both of which would dodge that hold. The way you worded the attacks after left no room for dodging or defending without it sounding like she's godmodding. "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." That would have been fine if left, since it would give her apt room to dodge it in her post, however you then followed it up with another attack "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," which left the first one ignored, meaning she would now have to godmod her way out of it. Again, another way she could of countered.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:22 pm
You basically just said you wanted her to godmod, which you or anyone else who read it would have called her out on no matter what.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:26 pm
Groganofthewasteland All Who Have Fallen Let me just end this whole thing right here. Your second statement is incorrect, on many many fronts. If she stabbed you with her sword; and you dodge, it's not like she'd just leave her arm forward waiting. The moment you moved she would A) bring her arm down, or B) Pull it back, both of which would dodge that hold. The way you worded the attacks after left no room for dodging or defending without it sounding like she's godmodding. "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." That would have been fine if left, since it would give her apt room to dodge it in her post, however you then followed it up with another attack "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," which left the first one ignored, meaning she would now have to godmod her way out of it. Again, another way she could of countered. Your missing the point "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." Would be fine "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," The second attack means the first one did hit without her doing anything about it aka auto-hitting.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:27 pm
Xistund Groganofthewasteland All Who Have Fallen Let me just end this whole thing right here. Your second statement is incorrect, on many many fronts. If she stabbed you with her sword; and you dodge, it's not like she'd just leave her arm forward waiting. The moment you moved she would A) bring her arm down, or B) Pull it back, both of which would dodge that hold. The way you worded the attacks after left no room for dodging or defending without it sounding like she's godmodding. "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." That would have been fine if left, since it would give her apt room to dodge it in her post, however you then followed it up with another attack "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," which left the first one ignored, meaning she would now have to godmod her way out of it. Again, another way she could of countered. Your missing the point "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." Would be fine "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," The second attack means the first one did hit without her connect aka auto-hitting. And if she stopped the first hit, the whole chain is ruined. The knee wouldn't of mattered if she blocked the bow strike.
Again, it seems the whole issue is wording on my front, and general confusion on her front. If she had come to me in the first place and we discussed this in PM's, this whole tribunal thing wouldn't of been necessary.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:31 pm
Groganofthewasteland Xistund Groganofthewasteland All Who Have Fallen Let me just end this whole thing right here. Your second statement is incorrect, on many many fronts. If she stabbed you with her sword; and you dodge, it's not like she'd just leave her arm forward waiting. The moment you moved she would A) bring her arm down, or B) Pull it back, both of which would dodge that hold. The way you worded the attacks after left no room for dodging or defending without it sounding like she's godmodding. "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." That would have been fine if left, since it would give her apt room to dodge it in her post, however you then followed it up with another attack "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," which left the first one ignored, meaning she would now have to godmod her way out of it. Again, another way she could of countered. Your missing the point "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." Would be fine "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," The second attack means the first one did hit without her connect aka auto-hitting. And if she stopped the first hit, the whole chain is ruined. The knee wouldn't of mattered if she blocked the bow strike. Well to the person reading it who did not know your style of rping it looks like you just hit her twice and she could not do anything about it. You don't write in past tense when fighting since it makes it sound like something has already happened when it could have been avoided.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:34 pm
Xistund Groganofthewasteland Xistund Groganofthewasteland All Who Have Fallen Let me just end this whole thing right here. Your second statement is incorrect, on many many fronts. If she stabbed you with her sword; and you dodge, it's not like she'd just leave her arm forward waiting. The moment you moved she would A) bring her arm down, or B) Pull it back, both of which would dodge that hold. The way you worded the attacks after left no room for dodging or defending without it sounding like she's godmodding. "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." That would have been fine if left, since it would give her apt room to dodge it in her post, however you then followed it up with another attack "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," which left the first one ignored, meaning she would now have to godmod her way out of it. Again, another way she could of countered. Your missing the point "He swung with his free hand, his bow still gripped in hand, a hard blow straight to the gut." Would be fine "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit, then let go of her wrist," The second attack means the first one did hit without her connect aka auto-hitting. And if she stopped the first hit, the whole chain is ruined. The knee wouldn't of mattered if she blocked the bow strike. Well to the person reading it who did not know your style of rping it looks like you just hit her twice and she could not do anything about it. You don't write in past tense when fighting since it makes it sound like something has already happened when it could have been avoided. You have a point. As she told me, my style of Rping is one she isn't used to. Hence why she believed I was auto hitting, when I wasn't.
I just want this whole thing to stop, so we can move on and forget this whole fiasco. I'm not innocent in this whole thing, neither is she. We're both at fault due to wording issues, confusing posts, and no real communication OOC.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:36 pm
Xistund Well to the person reading it who did not know your style of rping it looks like you just hit her twice and she could not do anything about it. You don't write in past tense when fighting since it makes it sound like something has already happened when it could have been avoided. You can write in past tense, in fact, most literate RPers do and treat everything as a What If? Scenario. So, I could say my strike went through but it's not unblockable. From what you and Minnta and a lot of people are seeming to say, we should all one line and only do one thing because if we do multiple, we're auto-hitting. grogan worked hard on that fight and won. It shouldn't matter about styles. Common sense should rule out. Because if you guys didn't like Grogan then you're going to love me.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:44 pm
Uchiha Roxas Xistund Well to the person reading it who did not know your style of rping it looks like you just hit her twice and she could not do anything about it. You don't write in past tense when fighting since it makes it sound like something has already happened when it could have been avoided. You can write in past tense, in fact, most literate RPers do and treat everything as a What If? Scenario. So, I could say my strike went through but it's not unblockable. From what you and Minnta and a lot of people are seeming to say, we should all one line and only do one thing because if we do multiple, we're auto-hitting. grogan worked hard on that fight and won. It shouldn't matter about styles. Common sense should rule out. Because if you guys didn't like Grogan then you're going to love me. I'm not saying that at all but "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit" and "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow would hit" makes all the difference. And we don't have a problem with you or Grogan. You both seem like ok people but the way you word things effect people's judgement. Grogan already said I have a point and its a miscommunication.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:54 pm
Xistund I'm not saying that at all but "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow just hit" and "He then swung his knee into the same place his bow would hit" makes all the difference. And we don't have a problem with you or Grogan. You both seem like ok people but the way you word things effect people's judgement. Grogan already said I have a point and its a miscommunication. I just think common sense should win out.
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Posted: Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:06 pm
A friend of mine who's also been rping longer then me also gave me some good advice for the subject. Quote: Past tense posting while fighting can be done, but it has to be like, "He aimed his fist at the woman's face, hoping to connect, and then swung up with his knee toward her gut." Aimed, not stating it connected, she could easily say if it hit or not. It's called give or take, if neither of them hit the other, then that's also godmodding cause no one can get into a fight without being hit at least once.
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