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 Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 1:16 am
I've been away for a while and apologize for this, I kinda unofficially quit Gaia because well to be frank people make fun of you for going on it. But I'll check back at this guild periodically from now on.
Anyway...I'm a male, as you all may know, and I find dealing with anti-feminist women hard, because I am a male.
Now when I'm talking about anti-feminist women, I'm not talking about a woman who sees feminists all as "feminazis" who act like women are superior etc etc. I'm talking about women who actually believe that women should be submissive and stay at home and not go to work, etc. I have a hard time talking with them, as I'm a male, they feel they would know better about women than I do. So they feel they have the upper hand.
So can any of you females give me some advice?
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 7:12 am
I have a really hard time dealing with anti-feminist women as well, speaking as a woman. It's hard dealing with someone who has serious idealogical differences then you do.
I don't know. You can always try the "Well, you might want to stay at home and make dinner, but the fact that feminism exists is proof positive that some women don't want to, and forcing people into situations they are unhappy with is cruel."
adding on a note about how you're just providing options, and not trying to force them out of the house, or force them not to cook might be an idea as well.
Hinestly, I'm not sure what else to say. I think it'd all be situational dependant stuff.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 10:18 am
Sometimes it's difficult talking to women like that because they feel they're being attacked for making the choice to stay home--because sometimes, they do get attacked by people who will say stuff like, "Man, what do you do all day at home? Why don't you get a job and do something useful?" I know this for a fact, because my mom gets asked that all the time. Personally, I find it terribly anti-woman and I would never tell my mom that she's wasting her life if she doesn't have a job outside the home. On the other hand, it can be very difficult to talk to her about feminism and her rights as a human being just because she kind of does believe that women should be submissive. I guess the best thing to do is to proceed with sensitivity and openness, because the minute a person becomes defensive, you don't have a chance in hell of changing their minds.
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Posted: Sun May 06, 2007 8:54 pm
I remember a quote that went something like, "In order to defeat your enemy, you must understand him."
In a way, we're kind of looking as the "anti-feminist" as an opponent, because their beliefs are opposite of ours. We are not looking to defeat them, but to possibly persuade them to apprehend our point of view.
You must ask yourself, "Why does she have these beliefs? Why does she believe that women should be submissive? Stay at home? Does it bring her down or does she really enjoy her role?"
This brings us to another point: are the beliefs of the anti-feminist hurting her? Some women do enjoy playing the "woman role." They are comfortable with being the supportive wife. If they are happy, why change it?
This reminds me of my friend's mother. She's a Catholic, Hispanic woman who was raised in Mexico and immigrating to America at one point in her life (I cannot recall at what age). She does believe in gender roles, such as the man should bring the meat to the table while the woman should take care of all the household needs and children. But she does believe that women should be treated equally, having the right to speak their mind and receiving the respect they deserve. She's happy with her motherly role. Why question her?
As I think about it, I begin to understand where you're coming from Kacen. There are many women who are hurt by their beliefs of a "submissive woman," such as . . . codependents. In this case, maybe they do need to make a few adjustments, especially if they are being hurt or hurting others with their beliefs. A woman who has an abusive husband and believes that she deserves the abuse because she's only a woman obviously needs some help.
I also think of women who desire more, but don't go after what they want because of their sex. For example, if a woman wants to be a football player, and does especially well at the sport. I believe that if she is stopping herself because of sex roles, then she obviously needs to be confronted with this issue. I know my example may be a little drastic or cliche, but it explains my thoughts.
Cawbird is right. You should definitely be open and sensitive when speaking to an "anti-feminist." If you show that you are listening to what they say and trying to understand their point of view, they are more likely to do the same for you. Show them that you understand them, such as "From what I am hearing, you believe that women should be submissive because . . . . I believe I understand your point of view, but here's what I believe."
In the end, sometimes it is best not to persuade another person. If they are not opened to changing their beliefs, what can you do? Being yourself and remaining to show that you are a feminist is your only choice. The most influential people that I have known didn't tell me what I should be, but they were the people that made me say to myself, "I want to be like that when I get older." In other words, be a role model.
As for quitting the guild because people make fun of you for it . . . I wouldn't call that a feminist quality. Feminists stand up for what they believe in, even when it's not the popular belief. My question is, how can you change others beliefs when you cannot even take ownership of your own?
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 4:18 am
You could say that while you respect their preference to be a "sumissive type" as you describe, you respect women in general too much to put their expectations of themselves on the backburner to someone else's expectation. Just like it wouldn't be fair to force a housewife into the workplace, it wouldn't be fair to force a working woman to be a housewife.
The idea should be choice here. Forcing all women to be the same is the anti-feminist's game.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 3:33 pm
LuthienTinuveil As for quitting the guild because people make fun of you for it . . . I wouldn't call that a feminist quality. Feminists stand up for what they believe in, even when it's not the popular belief. My question is, how can you change others beliefs when you cannot even take ownership of your own? Errr...actually you misunderstood me. I quit GAIA because people made fun of you for it. But anyway thanks all of you for your help.
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Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:31 pm
Kacen LuthienTinuveil As for quitting the guild because people make fun of you for it . . . I wouldn't call that a feminist quality. Feminists stand up for what they believe in, even when it's not the popular belief. My question is, how can you change others beliefs when you cannot even take ownership of your own? Errr...actually you misunderstood me. I quit GAIA because people made fun of you for it. But anyway thanks all of you for your help. Ohhhhh. biggrin My apologies.
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Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 11:14 pm
Well... usually there is a sense of tradition in 'roles' in the house. And I am perfectly fine if a woman decides to stay at home and cook, clean and take care of the kids, if it makes her happy AND if she can speak her mind. WHat I'm not fine with is that males usually don't help at all... all the males in my family simply do not help clean, cook or don't even take care of theyr kids(not to mention that my dad is an absolute sexist >>; but that's offtopic), I think that whatever a woman decides, the man should always be willing to let her speak her mind and to help out.
As for me and my sweetheart, we do everything together: cook, clean, and at some point in the future raise our kids, and we both have ocupations, it's just more fun and easy and it takes a lot less time that way ^^
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:07 pm
Madman_V3N0M As for me and my sweetheart, we do everything together: cook, clean, and at some point in the future raise our kids, and we both have ocupations, it's just more fun and easy and it takes a lot less time that way ^^ Use a condom until you're ready. wink
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 12:14 am
LuthienTinuveil Madman_V3N0M As for me and my sweetheart, we do everything together: cook, clean, and at some point in the future raise our kids, and we both have ocupations, it's just more fun and easy and it takes a lot less time that way ^^ Use a condom until you're ready. wink Oh don't even get me started, LOL I researched more on safe sex than I did on anything else in my life, and I talked to her about it all... rather awkwardly, but we had to talk about it ^^ it will be many years before we have kids
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:51 pm
Madman_V3N0M LuthienTinuveil Madman_V3N0M As for me and my sweetheart, we do everything together: cook, clean, and at some point in the future raise our kids, and we both have ocupations, it's just more fun and easy and it takes a lot less time that way ^^ Use a condom until you're ready. wink Oh don't even get me started, LOL I researched more on safe sex than I did on anything else in my life, and I talked to her about it all... rather awkwardly, but we had to talk about it ^^ it will be many years before we have kids Good. biggrin I hate kids.
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Posted: Sat May 12, 2007 12:48 am
LuthienTinuveil Madman_V3N0M LuthienTinuveil Madman_V3N0M As for me and my sweetheart, we do everything together: cook, clean, and at some point in the future raise our kids, and we both have ocupations, it's just more fun and easy and it takes a lot less time that way ^^ Use a condom until you're ready. wink Oh don't even get me started, LOL I researched more on safe sex than I did on anything else in my life, and I talked to her about it all... rather awkwardly, but we had to talk about it ^^ it will be many years before we have kids Good. biggrin I hate kids. Well I'm currently taking care of my nephew, he's 1yo, and is generally a good kid... but I don't like spoiled brats >< And it seems I can handle my nephew better than my mom can ^^ and I hope that means I'll be a good helpfull dad
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:37 am
Omg if I hear "feminism is about choice, and some choose to be homemakers (housewives, please)" one more time...
I understand it's a "choice" but that doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off. I realize taking care of kids is important but it's 2007. Don't you think both parents should contribute to that? confused
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Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:45 pm
I know of many women who are housewives, but active volunteers as well. While they don't have a job, occupation, career, etc., they actively participate in making many beneficial contributions to the community whether it be with the schools, nursing homes, tutoring, etc. They thoroughly enjoy what they do. Both the father and mother contribute to taking care of their children.
Are we lowering these women because they do not have a "real job?"
In fact, I also know of many women, who in my rural environment, work full time on the farm while their husbands work in an office or as a teacher. These women enjoy gardening, selling the produce at farmer's markets, and taking care of a variety of livestock. Wasn't this "male's work" in the past?
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:32 pm
LuthienTinuveil Are we lowering these women because they do not have a "real job?"
Yes.
I know it's a choice but it personally bothers me to see something so stereotypical. It's a personal thing.
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